Interview: Malu Block

Interviewer: Elizabeth Bakewell

Date: February 8, 1988

Place: Mexico City

M: I came into art scene the gallery with Juan Martin

who was the original founder of this gallery. That was

in '67. However, in '65 there was a big show

organized, sponsored by ESSO, the oil company

throughout Latin America. Here in Mexico, it was the

first time that two abstract painters were rewarded

first prizes and that created chaos. And that was to

Fernando Garcia Ponce and Lilia Carrillo.

I: What kind of chaos?

M: Well everybody was angy, especially the art critics

because they were still backing the Mexican School. So

to have two abstracts was unheard of and there was a

big fight going on in the Museum of Modern Art [Mexico

City] and everybody was screaming and anyway they got

the prize. And I believe it was a year later in a big

show called Confrontation was held in Bellas Artes and

the whole idea was to confront the new artists with

their new type of paintings which were geometrics and

abstracts, expressionists who did not follow at all the

Mexican School and on the other side the so-called

Mexican School of painters. Well it was obvious that

the good painters were the young generation who was

trying to find new ways and were trying to get away

from the muralists and they were of course were

attacked of being too influenced by outside currents.

Perhaps they were. I don't think it is all true

because they closer to what was being done in the rest

of the world. You could always see a Mexican look

somewhere. However, it was thanks to that generation

that the whole art scene literally exploded and it was

like a fresh wind. People could really start to work

again and it was very funny. Vicente Rojo had a canvas

where he glued you know those rubber rugs for the

bathroom, what do you call them?

I: They are actually called "appliques."

M: Well, so he put it on a painting and my god it was

like a big insult. And you just laughed and you say,

my god, this was being done in Europe I mean thirty

years before. However, in Mexico it was unheard of

and it was like the big offense and they were getting

away from the respect in art and all that. But it was

a very important generation. It was Vicente Rojo,

Felguerez, Lilia Carrillo, Fernando Garcia Ponce, who

were really the leading abstract/geometric painters.

Then there was Alberto Gironella with his surrealism

and his expressionism and it was very important too

because the first time that the Mexican public saw a

sardine can being glued onto a canvas they went wild.

They didn't know what was going on. [cut,phone]

I: You were talking about...

M: We are trying to finish unpacking. We have here the

magazine and newspapers of Confrontaci'on which to me is

a very important point.

I: I would love to go through those. I will be here

until the beginning of June.

M: Wonderful. Wonderful. Then we will be able really

to work. There is an art critic who is basic. That's

Juan Garcia Ponce. Unfortunately you can't talk to him

anymore because he has the *56. Fortunately he has

been able to live so long. But he has no voice

practically. But we have most of his clippings, well

not all of them of course but the most important ones

anyway of our artists. We are keeping tract. And we

did an homenaje to him. We must have the catalogue

somewhere. Oye, Alfredo, tu sabes si esta a mano el

cat'alogo del homenaje a Garcia Ponce? Bueno si lo

encuentras, me lo bajas, por favor. The idea was to

make the public see. But an art critic, what he wrote

in the early 60s was quite as valid in the 80s. I mean

the way that he saw art he rarely made a mistake. The

art that he picked out as the best of the generation

are still the best. So it was a very nice exhibit and

it consisted of course of Vicente Rojo, Juan Soriano,

Felguerez, Lilia was unfortunately dead at the time,

Coen, Sakai. Sakai is a very interesting figure in

Mexico. He is not Mexican. He is Argentinian-

Japanese.

I: Oh. [cut]

M: There is Felguerez. And there you have some of the

younger ones Gila Castilla*77, Marin*, You can write a

book of it...

I: I'm sure.

M: Sakai is a Japanese Argentinian who came to Mexico

with the United Nations and he is also an orientalist.

He taught at the Colegio de Mexico for a very long

time, Oriental literature. He is also a great jazz

expert. and to me a magnificent painter. Well the

kind of thing that he was doing in the 60s was so wild

for Mexico that he had a great impact on students. I

think that they, its not that they copied them but they

saw many new paths that they had not seen before and to

me he is a very exciting painter. Unfortunately he

left Mexico and is now living as a resident artist in

Dallas in Texas. And his painting was from a show at

the museum [MAM] that he had at the end of last year.

So he still has the ties with Mexico. [cut]

I came into the gallery in '67. And the additions to

the gallery with which he[Juan Martin] was working

already were: Rojo, Coen, Felguerez, Lilia [Carrillo],

Gabriel Ramirez, Francisco Corzas comes into the scene.

He is a very good expressionist painter. But more of

the Italian-Spanish schools. He is a very fine

painter. He is dead unfortunately. And then in 68 in

the Olympics with all the mess we had hear. Bellas

Artes did a horrible show. So that the good painters

got together and formed the Salon Independiente. And

the first show was at the Biblioteca *108 Sylva Fabelar

in San Angel. It was a very important show becasue it

was a protest against the very traditional line.

I: And the Bellas Artes show..

M: was horrible.

I: And where was it?

M: In Bellas Artes.

I: In the Palacio? And when you say it was horrible

what do you mean?

M: Well it was all the mediocre painters and the thing

is that, lets say that the intellectuals and the

artists were so against the government with all the

riot and the way it was handled that they did not want

to be associated with anything the government did or

anything official. So that when they were invited to

that show they all refused, or most of them refused.

And they formed a block they called the Salon

Independiente. That Salon lastested three or four

years I'm not sure. And it was a very interesting

thing to get these painters together and form a

separate show an exhibit, it was fabulous.

I: And it was put on where?

M: It was a public library called El Sidro Fabela*123

in San Angel. And the second Salon Independiente was

held in the Museum of the National University and it

was held I don't remember two or three consecutive

years at the University and then it disolved. I don't

know why, artists can not keep together, stay together.

Well it was also very refreshing because many of the

younger painters squeezed into the Salon Independiente.

They had the *131. It was very interesting. I think

that it was in the middle of the 60s with that ESSO

show and with Confrontation that the lid was...

I: lifted

M: lifted. And I think the artists were able to really

fit what they wanted. Many new galleries sprung up.

This one, Juan Martin, was fundamental because it had

this particular generation of Garcia Ponce, Rojo,

Felguerez, Lilia and Juan Garcia Ponce was the major

critic and he was instrumental in trying to make people

see this new kind of painting and not to look for the

tree and to really be able to enjoy abstracts,

geometrics, a different kind of world.

I: Was he also giving lecture? How did he reach the

people who were perhaps nonbelievers?

M: Well, he wrote regularly in magazines like Siempre,

Revista de la Universidad, in the newspapers...

I: In all the papers?

M: No, no, no. Excelsior mostly, in Plural. Plural

was a magazine. When Octavio Paz came back to India

after he resigned as Ambassador because of the 68 riots

he came back almost like a hero because he was the noly

intellectual or Ambassador who did that. So when

Octavio comes to Mexico he has all of the intellectuals

at his feet. So he creates a magazine called Plural

that is subsidized by Excelsior. The magazine still

exists but not with Octavio as the head. For while he

was the head Sakai was also with him, I don't know,

editor or something like that. I mean it had a very

important art section. In reality it was the only

magazine that could really be read if you were

interested in literature and art. And Sakai was very

close to Damian Bayon, the art critic who also at that

time was teaching in Austin. And the head of the museum

was Donald Goddall who I think was the only museum

director in the United States who was really interested

in Latin American art and who would travel extensively

throughout Latin America. and so he would come to

Mexico very often and got to know all of these artists

he backed them, he bought for the collection and with

Plural he organized a very good show called twelve

Latin American artists in Austin.

I: I have that catalogue.

M: Well that was very important also for these

painters. It was very important recognition. Although

they had been invited previously to several shows in

the States, Rojo had been already at the Center for

Inter-American Relations in New York, along with other

painters. So things were starting to move and starting

to get the recognition that Mexican painting did not

mean only Rivera. There was this new generation that

is doing very interesting things.

I: That's so interesting because I have that catalogue.

It came to me several years ago by happenstance, I was

not looking for it [Lucile gave it to me]. And now to

hear how that all happened. I knew there was a Plural

connection because in the catalogue there is a quote

from Plural. Sakai was the organizer and promoter so

along with that show he did not participate as an

artist. He only particpated as a promoter and

organizer. And they organized along with the

University a symposium which was very interesting on

Latin American art and the Latin American identity and

they had very fine people in that symposium. They had

Latin American writers who were living in the States

along with other [cut] along with the intellectuals who

were living in Mexico or Peru or... They had Marta

Traba for example, they had Carlos Rodriguez*193 from

Peru, they had Rodriguez Mondregal* who lives in the

States, they had Gustavo Saenz who now is in the States

but at that time is in Mexico. They had Barbara Duncan

on the American side along with Goddall, there was Dore

Ashton, Jaqueline Barnitz. Well it was really a

wonderful symposium. Many of the art galleries in

Mexico like the Pecanins and like myself went to that

symposium and it was really a fascinating experience

to see what we were familiar with through the artist of

the American art lovers. It was a unique experience.

I: That must have been fascinating.

M: The students were very interested. They made very

intelligent questions and suddenly it all made sense.

It wasn't a "Let's have a good time and get together.

It was really a purpose behind it all. so I found it a

very profitable experience, very enriching.

I: Do you know if that was tape recorded and

transcribed?

M: Yes. Damian Bayon was there. It must have been

yes. The University must have a record of it.

I: Well now, just curiously the exhibit in 1968 that

INBA had sponsored, who were some of those artists,

were they still painting in the Mexican school, the

derivative...

M: They were the very bad abstract painters.

I: So they did include the abstract painters?

M: Oh yes, Oh yes. After Confrontation they saw that

it was ridiculous. I mean you can't stop a vitality

like that it was just too strong. And there were just

too many painters trying to say different things. I

mean we already, Arte Mexicano had already done a very

important show of surrealists and many of them were

living in Mexico, Remedios Varo, Leonora Carrington,

Alicia Rahon, Wolfgang Paalen, they could not be

ignored. There was also a very important gallery that

no longer exists very good called Antonio Sosa and

perhps he was the first avante-garde gallery

unfortunately Antonio was an incredible, he had an

incredible eye to pick out the good apinters but very

inefficient as a manager and it was very unfortunate

becuase he was very important as an art dealer.

I: He's still alive?

M: Oh yes. He lives out in Cuernavaca.

I: And is not involved in the art world?

M: No. Juan Martin opens the gallery in '62.

I: I wanted to ask you about the history of the

gallery.

M: Juan Martin was a Spanish refugee who came to

Mexico through France becasue he had made alot of

Mexican friends when he was there.

I: In Paris?

M: In Paris, yes. So they induced him to come to

Mexico. When he came here he started working in the

University with the magazine and he gave Juan Garcia

Ponce his first job as an art critic because he had no

one else to do it.

I: And that was to write catalogues?

M: That was to write about an exhibit of Juan Soriano,

I believe, I'm not sure but I think that it was the

first criticism that Juan Garcia Ponce did that we have

somewhere in the files. I did an abstract of that for

this special catalogue [homenaje] that they are looking

for. And so Juan Garcia Ponce was launched as an art

critic. His brother was a fine painter. And Juan

stayed with the magazine for quite a while...

I:Ah gracias.

M: Let me explain it to you.

I: We are looking at the Homenaje to Juan Garcia Ponce

catalogue.

M: That's right. Alvarez Bravo, the photographer, well

many did not conceive of photography as an art in those

days and Juan was one of the first to really push

photography as an art. *because he wanted to be

included in the show because he is very fond of Juan

and because Juan did the catalogue of his first show in

Mexico, he's from Argentina but lives in New York, Juan

Yovane*268 is a very fine artist. Coen, Cuevas also

asked to be included. Also Juan wrote alot about

Cuevas. But really the body of the gallery let's say

of Coen, Felguerez, Garcia Ponce, Gironella,

Sakai, Soriano, Rojo, Von Gunten and Saura, because

when I brought Saura to Mexico it was Juan who wrote a

very fine introduction to his work so that's how this

all came about. That's Soriano. It's an extract and

it happened in '59 so I think it was the first art

criticism that Juan did. When you read it you find

that what he says in '59 is just as true today. So I

try to find the oldest possible art criticism to

include instead of the recent ones. So Gironella comes

from '64, Rojo comes from 62, Coen '65, unfortunately

the photographs don't coincide with the articles but

anyway. Here is Confrontacion. We covered it

completely. I really thought it was the turning point.

I: Now, what about Octavio Paz, you mentioned him in

terms of his role coming back from India a hero...

M: Yes, he did Plural and we do have old numbers of

Plural which you can see. And many of the art

criticisms were done by Juan Garcia Ponce and many were

done by Sakai himself. And they were very good. And

they had articles by Damian Bayon of not only the

artsists in Mexico but mostly Latin American artists.

He was a very important man at the time. At the same

time the museum turned out the magazine called...Oye

como se llamaba la revista del museo te acuerdas que

sacaba Carla? [cut] Well that was put out by the

museum and it tried to be so avant garde that it was

really quite dull.

I: And this was the Museo Universitario?

M: No the Arte Moderno. Then it was under the

direction of Gamboa. Gamboa was also instrumental in

making these young artists known to the rest of the

world. Every time he had to organize a large Mexican

show he tried to include mainly this new generation.

So he was wildly criticized and attacked by all the

ones who were not included obviously. But Gamboa in

that sense I think really tried to give the idea of

what the new Mexican artist liked and he really did a

very good job. So in the '60s, in the very early '60s

when all of these artists were in the midst of the

[r]evolution I mean they were just dying to go, well

Gamboa gave them the museum, he took them all over the

world, and around the world to fairs where there was

such a good show he would include some and he did a lot

for them and then Carlas Tereg*325 who was the ex-wife

fo Belkin the painter started to work in the museum and

started to bring out this magazine and of course it was

the only art magazine at the time and Plural...asi se

llamaba Artes Visuales...

I: Gracias.

M: Oye me busca un Plural que tenga una critica, Buenos

dias, o algo. So when our files are arranged and

hopefully that will not take very long you are very

welcomed to. It is the only way to know what was going

on is to go through the literature.

I: When you are ready, I will be hear until the end of

May. I would love to go through this stuff.

M: It's very interesting. When I came to the gallery

in '67 when I first read of course were all the

clippings of the artists, and Confrontacion, the history

of the gallery, because I didn't know.

I: Tell me more about the actual history of the

gallery.

M: Well, Juan opened in '61 where Arvil is now in the

Cerrada on Hamburgo [Zona Rosa] and it was a very old

house and that is where Juan started and then he moved

ot Amberes and he bought a little house in the *350

and he moved there in '66 and we stayed there for

twenty years. Now, Juan also believed...I think that

he was really more of an art lover than an art dealer

because at that time if you could really sell a

painting you would go out and howl I mean "My god, I

sold a painting." You would tell the world.

I: It didn't happen often?

M: Very seldom. It wasn't important. It was important

in so far as it was how he made a living. But it was

not the first fact that was important. What was

important was the quality of the work that we were

trying to show. So he could strain himself in the long

run to nine painters. There's a book which we do have

and I will give to you which is called Nueve Pintores

which came out in '68 on Lilia, Corzas, Rojo, Coen,

Felguerez, Von Gunten, Gabriel Ramirez, Gironella, and

Garcia Ponce. [cut] For years he would not take any

other artists and that was how it was formed in '67 and

it boiled down to those nine and he would not take

anymore for many many years.

I: Now who were your clients in those days. Who was

buying this "crazy" art.

M: Well, a very important actor at the time that loves

art and his nephew. He is a Jewish Mexican. There was

another American living in Mexico, Robert Lerner...

I: Was he with the Embassy, I've heard that name?

M: No. He was [cut] at the time. So Rojo got the idea

that since he [Juan Garcia Ponce] was not going to be

able to sign at the time to have his thumb print so

all the artists put down their thumb print and here you

have what they were om '68, no '67-'68.

I: Now this book is no longer available is it?

M: No. I'm giving it to you I still have some more.

I: Thankyou so much. This is wonderful. I think that

this period is the most interesting in Mexico's

history, I mean [joking] in all its 400 years!

M: Well it was very interesting because it was not so

much [cut] that they did not recognize the qualities of

the muralists which they did. Of course all of them

had one or two favorites which they did. It was not

that they did not recognize the quality of the good

painters but they were tired of that. They wanted to

try new things; they wanted to experiment. They wanted

to be modern, to be contemporary. And it was a big

battle that they had to put up. And one of the very

few galleries that really backed them was Juan Martin.

That's why he worked exclusively with these nine

painters and they worked exclusively with him. That

make them very strong as an image. Little by little,

collecotrs began to come in. People who had traveled

saw the type of art and was interested in what these

young painters were doing. And so they were willing to

back them. Now we don't have the type of collector

that you have in the states. We have some but very few

who really follow up on an artist who come to every

show to see what is going on.

I: Instead you have...

M: But the occasional collector, with very important

exceptions.

I: And this banker...

M: The banker, and the American and there is another a

Mexican who are the exceptions. Who started really to

follow and to find out what was going on and who

started to read and meet the artist and sort of wonder

what was going on and what they were trying to do. So

little by little they grow. So when I came in in '67

at the begginning it was the first Corzas show in the

gallery and then we had Von Gunten who I have always

loved. Now fortunately I have been fery fortunate in

my work because I really believe that they are the

best.

I: You are lucky.

M: Yes. I am very lucky. Because I see other painters

and even though I may like tham and respect them I

still think that mine are better. Now Juan retired in

'73 because he was tired because he wanted to do

something else so when he wanted to leave the gallery

what's the word for traspasar? which I don't know.

I: Moved, changed

M: Traspasar means that I took over, but I don't know

what the word is in English [transferred]. Traspasar

is when you say "Well, I leave you the business and he

didn't really sell the business because he gave it to

me at a very, very low price.

I: In this case it means "hand down." Sometimes it

means trespass. He handed the business down to you and

you took over.

M: And I took over the gallery. Well I had been

working with him since '67 so I was familiar with the

gallery and Toledo came to the gallery in '68. Todedo

had the first show with Juan in '69.

I: Now was that one of Toledo's first shows?

M: No. His first show was with Antonio Sosa. Then he

had one with the Galeria Misrachi and then he came and

talked to Juan and said "what do I have to do to get

into this gallery?" Juan said that "the only thing is

for me to like your work and since I do you are in."

So we had his first show in '69. It was a beautiful

show. It had a lot of acrylic on masonite, on paper

anad then pasted on masonite, gouache, then he went to

Paris. when he came back we did one on graphic work

which he brought from Paris. Then in the 70s we did one

on tapestry and sculpture. Beautiful. Then Juan left

the gallery but before that in '72 he did a large show

of canvases which were out of this world. He also left

for Paris and New York and then Juan left the gallery

and I took over and I had a very large graphic show of

Toledo. And then he moved on to greater fields

unfortunately.

I: He left the gallery.

M: No. Right now he is not with any one gallery. He

sells his things and they are so expensive now that you

need a huge amount of money to be able to buy.

I: Is his stuff more expensive than any of the artists

that you handle.

M: I believe so because he has an international

standing. For example when the Martha Jackson*496 had

Toledo for several years that automatically brought his

prices up. Also in the first auction that he was put

in his prices suddenly soared. And he was terrified of

that. He was very very frightened of that. He thought

that it would unbalance his art market. Suddenly he

realized that he was famous and he was scared stiff.

His quality is incredible. I mean he is a genius. An

outstanding artist. He is a phenomenon. No matter

what does he has that incredible ability of converting

anything into something else very beautiful. I mean he

can take a coconut shell and transform it immediately

into an art object. How does he do it? I remember in

that sculpture show he had made *515 of two very large

turtle shells...it was the most beautiful thing that

you can imagine, my god, it was outstanding. You know

it had that quality of very very primitive art, I don't

know of Oceania, of Australia, of New Guinea, it had

that quality but it was never a copy, it was always

Toledo. And at the same time very contemporary. I

mean nobody could do that but him. He's something

else. Now Toledo was never emotionally involved with

this movement of rejection. He was doing his thing and

anyway he had been living in Paris for quite awhile and

he just devoted himself to what he does best which is

just paint. While the otheres who had been living here

had to suffer all those obstacles to show their work

and have the opportunity to be themselves well they had

to fight. Toledo did not because he was in Paris.

I: Is he much younger?

M: No. He's the same age as Coen. He's from 1940, but

of course he is much younger than Felguerez. Felguerez

is '29, Rojo is '33. Garcia Ponce was '33. Von Gunten

is '33, I mean was 1933. Lilia was I don't know '35 or

something like that.

I: So he is about ten years younger than the nine.

M: Yes. Coen who started very young, 1940, and he was

already about the '64-'65 period he presented an

incredible show of small wash at the Casa de Lago and

they were the most poetic things that you can imagine I

mean absolutely beautiful a bit like Klee but the

colors, the way that he handled colors is so

incredible.

I: Is he from Mexico City?

M: Yes.

I: What kind of arrangement do you have with the

artists?

M: I'll tell you Elizabeth. The very structure has

changed in so far as *566. The painters get a bit

nervous about staying in one definite place. So when I

decided to traspasar...

I: Take over....

M: Let's say that you are leasing the apartment.

I: Sublet?

M: No. You rent an apartment and I come in and say

I'll give you money if you leave me your apartment.

And you say let me introduce you to my landlord and if

he's willing, alright. What do you call that?

I: Traspasar.

M: Well I got a very good offer from these people who

make clothes to leave the place in Amberes so with the

money that they gave me for getting out I was able to

buy the house here [in Polanco] and then start

remodelling it and making it into a gallery. Because

that space didn't belong to the gallery it belonged to

the widow of Juan Martin. And since she also needed

more rent and I couldn't afford it it was the perfect

solution for me. But in that year span of course many

of them got which is natural well they had to look out

for themselves a bit and they many of them wanted to

try with new galleries and to see what would happen

there and to get new public, if their image changes, if

it gets better or worse or whatever. So what I'm going

to do starting now is to have a free working

relationship with all of them. And not have any

exclusive deal with any one of them. Which gives them

more freedom and gives me more freedom too. Now I

still say that the strenth of the gallery is to work

just with a group. So I'm not interested in taking too

many artists. I don't think that is the way to do it.

I think Juan is right that the strength of the gallery

is to devote yourself to ten painters and that is it.

I: Now do you have some sort of arrangement where you

can go and see their new work?[

[cut]

M: I live in Cuernavaca and for the past few days I

have been staying here in her home [my mother].

I: She lives here in Mexico?

M: Yes, she lives here.

I: Are you from Mexico City?

M: Yes

I: Where did you learn such beautiful English.

M: Well, thankyou it isn't that beautiful. I went to

an American school; my father was an American. We

spoke English at home and I grew up with both

languages. Oh that's it.

I: And your mother speaks perfect English.

M: My mother speaks perfect English, perfect French and

perfect Spanish. I wish I could speak perfect French,

I don't. I am the dumb one of the family.

I: No, I don't think so. If you are the dumb one you

must have brillant brothers and sisters.

M: No a brillant mother and a brillant father.

I: Are your brothers and sisters also in the art world.

M: No. I only have one brother and he is not involved

in art at all. He likes it but he's not involved with

it.

I: How did you get interested in, I'm skipping around

and I want to come back to the arrangement you have

with the artists, but...

M: Well I continue to work with the same arrangement

with them. It's not a written contract. Its an oral

commitment. I would not take any more artists. they

would not go to another gallery. And it proved to be

satisfactory all the way around. Then we started to

have all our devaluations. And the economic crisis.

And things got just too tough for everybody. And when

I took new artists I would always consult with Rojo and

Felguerez, mainly with Vicente Rojo, because a rare

thing in an artist. Rojo can be very objective about

art so he doesn't see it through his own type of art

just he can always say when somebody is good or he

thinks is good even if he is the opposite of what he

does. And not many artists have that ability. So I

found Rojo to be an incredible advisor. He has always

been an incredible advisor. And wile he is not

exculsive anymore with the gallery I can always count

on him as an advisor. I rely on his judgment very,

very much and I adore his work. As I say I have been

very lucky becasue there has not been one of them I do

not realy believe in . So one of the first artsits to

come into the gallery with me was Sebastian the

sculptor. That I am very, very fond of. That I love

his work. And then Gonzalez Cortazar. I don't know if

you know his work?

I: Yes.

M: Unfortunately he doesn't work as much as I would

like him to because I love his pieces too.

I: Do you have some sort of arrangement whereby you can

go to their studios and see their work before anyone

else?

Side Two

M: Well we were trying to do something next month in

March. I need permits from the Departamento. Polance

because it has grown so much has restrictions on

business so when I bought his house and when I was

trying to get the permit from the Delegaci'on somehting

happened I don't know I think that my accountant did it

all wrong and he says its the Delegaci'on. But anyway

they would not permit his plans for remodelling because

you have to have a permit for the use of the land. And

that is the "Uso de Subsuelo" and that has to change.

Well I was not suppose to build or to rebuild or to do

anything but I had to do something and I did it without

the permits.

I: Everyone does.

M: So. I can't open now unless I have some sort of

permit so that I don't get clausurada. And that's what

I am waiting for. Trying to get somebody to help me

get the permit so that I can open. So I have a...I've

been to several studios I know that they are going to

give me work. But I can't really go and say I want

this and this and this because I don't know how long

its going to take and I don`t want to detract from

selling if I can't do it right now. I don't think it

is quite fair. So I want to wait until I have the

permit and then I can go and say "now." I am going to

open now and I want this and this and this. I know

that they are going to give it to me. Then I won't

have any trouble. What's the good of having it in

storage. Its unhealthy.

I: Hopefully you will get the permits.

M: Hopefully.

I: Now, how did you get interested in the art world.

What made you go to Juan Martin and say "I want...

M: Its a long story and not really that long. My

mother and father, mainly my mother, has always been

interested in art and has had all her life many friends

that were artists starting with Rivera, Frida Kahlo and

Lozano, and she was in the midst of also what was very

important movement in art*31 which was the beginning of

the muralist movement and of many artists then who were

not trying to be European then but of getting away from

the academic world and the Mexicans and that was also

very important in its time.

I: So you mother came to Mexico...

M: No. No, she is Mexican. She was born here.

I: Who is the American?

M: My father.

I: Oh I'm sorry I got confused.

M: My mother comes from a well-known Mexican family.

My grandfather was very much involved in the

Revolution. So when the Revolution explodes he sends

his family to Spain. So mother and her brother and

sisters grow up n Barcelona and have a very European

education. And they studied in Spain and they studied

in France and then they are sent to the States to get

the English education so then when she comes to really

live in Mexico in her late teens lets say in the early

twenties she comes to Mexico with a very broad European

education, very intellectual, very much aware of what

goes on in painting, in literature, in music because

she has always been vitally interested in art. And she

is very close Antonieta *47 [artist's name] you must have heard

of. Antonieta was the mentor of my mother and

Antonieta's younger sister for a while. My mother says

Antonieta would begin with I don`t know how many

courses and would not follow through and so she would

send my mother and her sister to finish so my mother

had been teaching courses at *53. Anyway mother comes

and starts to be a very close friend with Rodriguez

Lozano, *55, throught them she knows Diego Rivera who

got married to Lupe Marin and she workds very closely

with Antonieta at the opening of Ulises which is a

small theater first of its kind with Salvador*58, with

Miguel Urrutia, *58, all of that include intellectuals

of the time and were her friends. And she was always

very linked with art. Then she marries my father who

comes to Mexico through Miguel Covarrubias because they

were very close friends. Yes, my father and Miguel

Covarrubias shared an apartment.