Interview with Magali Lara

Interviewer: Elizabeth Bakewell

Place: Mexico City

Date: April 1, 1987

I: Bueno, yo ... en ingles,no? I thought, the best way,to begin

an interview is to have you begin, by saying, by answering a very

simple question: How (it's a very difficult question at the same

time) how did you get interested in art?

ML: I cannot tell you exactly when because when I was a child, I

was sort of a quiet child. My family was a crowded family, but

I loved books. And through books I guess I started, you know,

trying to make another kind of life. What I have around me was

not enough. Not because it was not a happy life but because

I wanted, you know, I wanted something else which was inside me.

Now I make a joke. I say, I thought I had something very

beautiful inside me, nobody looked at it. Nobody ever, you know,

notice it. But I thought it was very personal. Now I think

it's not so beautiful as I thought but it's what makes me look at

life and make me become a painter.

I: You had mentioned earlier that you grew up in the Yucatan?

ML: No, my family comes from there. That's ... it does make a

difference because then, you know, my parents when they were

twenty-three, twenty-four, they came to the city, and then they

have the family brought up down here. But still they have

another education, they look at life in another completely

different way, you know, ther're a lot more warmer, they like

parties, they like , you know, this very, how to say, way of

living that, very comfortable way of living. So, to have a house

it's very important, but to have a nice warm house and to have

food and if you come to the place so they can give you whatever

you would like to have. That's very important because, I think,

people from the city itself, they're not so open, like my family

is.

I: So it's a Yucatan tradition.

ML: It's a Yucatan tradition, yes.

I: Oh, how nice.

ML: And also, it's another story too. Even if we are part of

Mexico, there are situations in Yucatan, they are pretty different

because they are far away from the centre. So they are more

close to the Carribean, more close to the, you know, even to

Europe, than to Mexico sometimes.

I: Really?

ML: Yes.

I: Now, in what ways to Europe are they closer?

ML: Well, not exactly in the best way I could think of. But

during Yucatan for sometimes of history it's been a very rich

country. They wanted, they longed to separate from Mexico and

become an independent country

I: Oh, I didn't know that.

ML: And, in very many ways, they always have some contact with

Europe, with Spain or France or with England too, so it's funny

because sometimes they're rich, rich families and they know how

to speak Maya, they know how to speak Spanish and English or

French. Or, many of my uncles , they were brought uf in France.

I: They were?

ML: Yes, this is a very Latin American thing that they would go

there and they could speak French fluently and they live for ten

years in Europe and they come back to their own houses...

I: Now these are your parents' friends and relatives?

ML: Yes. It changed after the Revolution of course. It changed,

but during the nineteenth century the life there was pretty, I

don't know, they were very rich. They have these huge houses...

I: Have you ever been to Yucatan?

I: Never. Never, but I will go.

ML: You should go, because there's this thing also about life.

About, you know, there's the joke that some people even send

their laundry to Spain or to Portugal to get cleaned, and then

come back to Yucatan. So, what I mean of course, is it's another

way of thinking.

I: And that's still a joke today even though it has its roots in

the Revolution, before the Revolution era?

ML: Yes, but people are always wondering of the new style of

things. They're very fasionable in a way. They are peculiar.

They are naive and I think they feel proud of themselves. Their

own story, their own past still is with them, or with me, in any

case. So I was brought up in the city, but now after years have

gone by, I realize that I have some of that thing.

I: How interesting. Now, did your parents also go to Europe at

some point?

ML: Yes, at some point. My father loves the travelling stuff.

Everything that has to do with travel, he loves it. So he sent

us since we were very young to travel around because he thought

it was the best thing ever.

bI: And that was travelling around Mexico, and Latin America?

ML: Europe, everywhere.

I: So when was the first time you left Mexico City as a child?

ML: Well, first I went to Merida. Of course...

I: To see the familia..

ML: Yeah, I went to Merida a few times. And then when I was

twelve, I went to New York with him, with my father.

I: And he was going there on business or do you also have

relatives in New York?

ML: Well' now I have an Aunt there, but usually it was business

or fun or whatever. You know he sends all over the world.

I: Oh, how wonderful. What does he do?

ML: He's a businessman.

I: And he has his own company?

ML: Yes. And he's got business with the States a lot. So, at my

house, my family house always was full of people from different

countries. So, it made a lot of difference. So you knew that

things were not exactly as in your house but there would be some

other ways ways of living.

I: Oh, how interesting. And now, what does your father ... is

he in the importing business? Or...

ML: Yes.

b

I: Okay. And what does he... curiously, what...

ML: It's about cars. I don't know exactly ... refacciones. I

don't know how ...

I: I think those are car parts.

ML: Yes, I think so, yes.

I: Okay. So then he had to go to New York, and does he have to

do negociaciones with Ford and General Motors, or...

ML: With other smaller companies I think. With General Motors I

think he does and also with one that's called ( 79 ) that is

in Saint Louis, Missouri. So I went to Saint Louis, Missouri too

for a couple of months a few times.

I: And, well that's interesting. So that's how you learned your

English.

ML: Yes.

I: Because you speak beautiful English.

ML: Thank-you.

I: Someday... Your English is better than my English.

ML: Well, thank-you.

I: So, how many sisters and brothers...

ML: We were nine children.

I: Good heavens!

ML: Yes. So you see, I have my eldest brother is a writer. And

I have another sister that is also a music composer. So, even if

my family was not exactly a very sophisticated family, it turned

out to be very intellectual. Because my father thought education

was the best thing ever possible and my mother thought

independence was the best.

I: Oh really? That's interesting.

ML: Yes. So, I don't know why because they're very, like,

brought up in very different ways. You know, all their friends,

Yucatecan friends, are not like that. But them together they did

a very strange mix, I don't know, of some kind, because we are

have, you know, been going all around the world and still we are

very close to each other. My family is like a clan. I don't

know if you...

I: Yeah. A clan.

ML: Yeah.

I: Yeah, we do have clans.

Ml; So, these matters of feelings of, you know, of giveness and

stuff like thatit's a very reverent thing at home. This

psychological stuff...

I: Yeah...

ML: So, I guess that's why I became an artist. And I guess also

that's why my brother and my sister became an artist too.

I: That's so... And what about the other six children?

ML: They're a little bit of everything. We have two

businessmen, but we have two, two of my sisters studied

philosophy, and one is sort of a fashion designer. She's...

I: That's an artist as well

ML: She's an artist, yeah, sure. And, one of my brothers, he,

well he died, but he used to work with engineering and genetic

stuff. He was sort of developing this career in Mexico, which

was pretty new. And he was in a way some sort of philosopher,

and in another way an engineer. So,...

I: Oh, how interesting. You know, that's, that's a Latin thing,

I think. It may be especially indicative of your family, but,

you know, if someone can be an engineer and a philosopher at the

same time, in our country, forget it. You're either one or the

other.

ML: Right.

I: And you don't even have friends who are (111.5)

ML: Well, also it helped a lot to have such a big family because

everybody knew a little bit of something else. So you have to

see different worlds, you have to see different ways of thinking

and of living. You know, with my sister, Ana, a very good

composer, it's very funny because I don't have any time at all

for music. It took me a while, you know, to find out what the

sounds really meant.

I: Yes,...

ML: So, I remember once when she was talking with her teacher,

and they were talking about music and time. Music and time, and

they were saying, did you listen to that small part in Beethovan,

and I realized that I have never, ever in my life, listened to

that thing. You know, whatever they were talking about. That

world was not mine. I cannot possibly even realize how it was

built. So, it's amazing. And of course, I have learned. But it

takes a while.

I: Now, do all nine of the children live in Mexico City?

ML: Yes. Yes, we, as I tell you, we were a very close family. Of

course, the difference in ages was pretty good, so when my

brothers and my Aunt's brothers were teenagers, there were five

of us that were just children.

I: Yeah. Yeah.

ML: And so, yes, and then, one after the other either got

married, but most of the time we went to live alone.

I: Really?

ML: And then, we finally, you know, they finally made their own

families, but we were quite, how do yot say, spoiled on that.

I: Spoiled, yeah. It's a form of spoiling. Well now, your

parents are still alive?

ML: Yes.

I: And they're still in Mexico City?

ML: Yes.

I: I'd like to just backtrack. So you went to New York when you

were ten. That was your first trip...

ML: Twelve.

I: Twelve. And that was your first trip out of Mexico City.

ML: Yes.

I: And , with your father.

ML: Yes.

I: Your mom had to ...oh, and your mother...

ML: My father and my mother and another sister.

I: Oh wow. And all the other children had to stay home.

ML: Yeah.

I: Can't take them all.

ML: No.

I: And then, when did you go to Europe?

ML: I went the first time, when I was sixteen. I went with my

brother, who's just eleven months older than I, and my sister,

Ana, who's a few years younger than I. We went, you know, all

over the place.

I: And you were all alone,

ML: Yes.

I: Just the three of you.

ML: Yes. My father is quite a strange man because he gave us

some money and said, well, do what you want. Course, we have to

make an effort to, you know, so that we have enough money for the

whole trip.

I: Yeah, right.

ML: We were poor at that time. We were, you stay at these

places, you know, hostales..

I: Hostales y posadas and...

ML: Yeah. And you know, you buy your food and eat it at the

street or at a small place. Things like that. It was a nice

trip. I will never do it again. I'm glad I did it when I was

young, but no more of that.

I: Yeah.

ML: But still it was very nice because I could really see a

painting. And my brother was so generous, you know, he took me

over to all the museums I could think of. It was incredible

because, you know, I saw so much paiting.

I: And he was now, only three months older than you... no eleven

months, clearly

ML: Yes.

I: Of course, that would have been impossible. Eleven months

older and yet he knew already that you were interested in seeing

museums.

ML: Oh, yes, he knew. Well, I wanted to be a painter since I

was fourteen.

I: Oh really?

ML: Yes.

I: Now what happened when you were fourteen? Why fourteen?

ML: Well, first I was telling you. When I was a child I liked

books. The best thing I ever liked was books.

I: And your parents had a lot of ...

ML: No, no, there were not so many. That's was perhaps why I

longed for them so much because there was not enough. I read

pretty fast so, I always thought that perhaps one day I could

read all the books in the world and then I would have nothing

else to read. Nothing else. (Laughs) I didn't know.

I: The world of the child. It's grand.

ML: So, well. I wanted to be a writer first.

I: Oh, really

ML: So, I think, as Borges says, if you are a reader then you

want to become a writer.

I: Okay.

ML: But, when I start, how do you say, adolecencia...

adolescence?

I: Adolescence.

ML: Adolescence... I have this terrible force that I never

counted on. You could call it sex but for me it was something

very strange because I was a lonely child and I like to read and

then the forces of the body came over me and I didn't know what

to do with it. And I don't know why painting seemed to be the

best to express what I felt at the time, than words. You know,

the act of writing, it's a very small... you don't move very

much. With painting, it's the body. It's always this thing, you

know, the memory of your own body, things that you cannot express

but moving that you have to use. And so that's why I started

painting.

I: Now, were you, when did you know about painting, though, was

it in secondaria? And were they classes?

ML: Well you see, my grandmother used to paint.

I: Okay. And she lived in Yucatan

ML: No, she lived with us. She spent half and half: half of

the year was there and half of the year was with us.

I: Now, she's your mother's mother?

ML: Yes. And then you, know, she was really nice because she

was, she was, I don't know, peculiar. She's got her character.

She was a strong woman, and then at the same time she was very

nice, very soft, very funny too. And she loved painting. And i

remember always seeing her, you know, painting. With these very

tiny brushes. Then my mother got into painting too, after a

while. And,...

I: Without any... they didn't go to painting school?

ML: Yes, some particular schools, so they were not professional.

It was very lady-like.

I: Uh-huh.

ML: You know, very like, old-fashioned.

I: Yeah. How nice.

ML: And, I like it, I like it, this thing about (196) .

And then at high school, I went to art school, to the art

section, to art classes, and was good at it, and I loved it. but

I did't know what I wanted to be until I turned out to be

fourteen and this thing came over me and...

I: And that was that.

ML: Yeah.

I: That's so interesting. Well, Okay. Let's just back track

again to Europe. You're in Europe at the age of sixteen and your

older brother, is, so at sixteen you had already known for two

years that you...

ML: Yes, but I made another trip with that brother and my eldest

brother. Yousee my eldest brother also was interested, or is

interested in painting.

I: He's the businessman?

ML: He's a writer.

I: He's the writer.

ML: Hernan is his name.

I: Okay...Hermanis.

ML: Hernan.

I: Hernan. Okay.

ML: so, Hernan, you know, he started studying literature. I

never, I can't get that word in English.

I: Oh, it's... it's a difficult word. Esta bien.

ML: So, he started bringing books home. So, I was amazed. I

was in a shock. And he brought a lot of art books. And also,

essays about art, which for me, I didn't know there was such a

thing. So, I read them all. And,...

I: Now, your still in secondaria.

ML: I'm still in secondaria. I'm about twelve years old...

I: Twelve.

ML: And, my brother, he always has been very generous, so he

liked me, you know, he liked that I always was so interested in

his books, and he kept all the catalogues of the shows he went,

and give them to me.

I: Now, he is how much older than you?

ML: Ten years.

I: Ten years older. Okay.

ML: SO, I don't know how it came out but he decided that he

wanted to go to New York and then go to Europe. And my father

asked him to take us with him, which was pretty nasty of my

father, of course he didn't know but my brother was about twenty-

four years old and he had a fifteen-year-old,a fifteen-year-old

girl to get with him. To travel with him. And he said that he

would do it. He did. He took us to New York.

I: This was your second trip then, to...

ML: Yes, but the first time I didn't go to museums. We went

shopping, we went to restaurants,we went to...

I: Yeah.

ML: With my brother he was interested in art, and he took me all

over. And for me, I cannot tell you, when I saw the Museum of

Modern Art in New York. Because, all the things I read about, I

mean, Pollock was there, I hadn't seen a picture of them. I just knew

their names and what it was all about, but I had not actually

seen a picture, a painting. You know. Pollocks, I knew all

about it but I didn't know what he looked like. So it was an

extraordinary trip, and of course with my brother because he knew

a lot about modern art. So we could talk a little bit, we could,

you know, I could express myself. And so also it was a world of

young people. My father liked restaurants, liked shopping, but

with this brother, he took me to Greenwich Village, to all sorts

of places, you know, to plays that were very fashion at that

time, like Hair or Lenny...

I: OH,wow, you went to see Lenny?

ML: I did! I was shocked. But also that was because my brother

thought, you kmow , that he wanted us to have so much things to

see and to know what he was going through at that time too.

I: And you, at the age of fifteen, knew English well enough...

ML: No.

I: No.

ML: But I, you know, you...

I: You knew the groserias of Lenny.

ML: Well, perhaps not the groserias, but I knew that something

different was going on. That's it, eh?

I: So now that's the trip. Here you are at the age of fifteen

with your twenty-five year old brother in New York.

ML: And then he went to Europe with my other brother, with

Fernando, the one who is eleven months older than I, and I went

to Canada to study. I was educated in a nun's school for

fourteen years, not for fourteen years but for twelvwe years, I

don't know. I started school in a nun's school, all women's

school - all-girls' school. Then when I went to Canada I you

know, I told my father that I didn't want to go to another nun's

school. No more. I was sick of them. And he is very nice, so

he says, Okay, you won't go, you will go to a public school in

Montreal. So I went.

I: In Montreal. Now, why Montreal?

ML: Because my father didn't like gringos enough to send his

girls there. Canadians are a lot more polite. And also they are

Catholic.

I: Of course.

ML: So it makes you know, the relationship a lot stronger than

with Americans.

I: Yeah. So now, but did you have relatives in Montreal?

Ml: No, I had, you know, nobody...

I: No Yucatecos in Montreal.

ML: I never spoke a word of Spanish when I was there. So I

learned both English and French, that's why my French is so

terrible.

I: But now you just land in Montreal, at the age of fifteen...

ML: Exactly like that you know? I didn't know a thing. It was

terrible. You know, and I...

I: And no-one to pick you up at the airport...

ML: Oh, well no, my father, my parents took me there...

I: Oh, your parents took you...

ML: Yes. They took me there, with a family, with a nice family

and so on and so forth. But then I went to a school which,...

I: But they didn't know the family?

ML: No. Of course, you know, they ask somebody of, that was

doing business, that they could trust and I could have someone in

any, you know, problem that I could have, or so, and...

I: But now, someone who was somehow related to your father's

business.

M: Right, business.

I: Okay.

M: Yes.

I: Okay. Ay ay ay. So you land...

M: Right there.

I: Right there. And so you go to high school then in Montreal?

M: Yes.

I: For how many years?

M: Just one year. And I didn't finish it. I started in English

and I was...you know, the worst class was geometry. I didn't

know what "set" was about.

I: Yeah.

M: And I could not get anyone to explain me what set is, was

about. So I still don't know. (Laughs) But what is it. I don't

understand. But finally I became the best in the school. The

first in geometry.

I: Really?

M: Yeah. I was the best.

I: Maybe there's a relationship between geometry and

art.(laughs)

M: You see,no, it was visual. The explanation was visual. So it

was easy (*287*)

I: Oh how,...So your brother then, goes on to Europe

M: Yes.

I: You meet your parents, you go to Montreal, and you're there

for a year.

M: For a year.

I: And then...

M: I even saw Rod Stewart!

I: You're kidding!

M: Yes, I went to a concert there. A few concerts. I went, I

started to live complete life, yoou know. I met young people,

different people, all characters, all nationalities. You know,

and at the same time they were friends because they live in the

same area ao they knew each other for quite a long time. I

realized what a language is. For instance, it really troubled me

that they could not understand what Spanish was about, and for

me, Spanish was my home-town. That made me different.

I: Yeah.

M: And also, you know, that I couldn't understand things because

of the weather.

I: The weather?

M: Because weather meant nothing to me.

I: Of course.

M: Until I got there.

(laughs)

I: Montreal is known for its snow.

M: Yes.

M: Well, I enjoyed it very much and I started, you know,

changing a lot. I went to these very strange parties, for me at

least, you know. Sex was more or less available. Not in Mexico.

I: No. Not for a young girl.

M: No. Yeah, I didn't have any sexual experience as everybody

will think, you know, someone would because I was slow. I didn't

know exactly what it meant.

I: Yeah.

M: I didn't know what was going on but so many things happened

after that time. The first I think is that I had, for the first

thing in my life, boyfriends. Not only as lovers or whatever but

friends that were men. You know, I could talk to them and I

could tell them what I felt, and so on, and for me...

I: And they're speaking only French, or English...

M: And English

I: Both.

M: Both. Yes. So for me it,was you know, like trying to make a

map, you know, to try to find out what "me" is close to them, and

what "me" is different (*321*?)

I: And there were no other Mexicans?

M: There were none.

I: You saw none.

M: None.

I: Wow. But you learned French.

M: Yeah.

I: Very quickly. You had no choice.

M: You see, I learned first English because I knew a little bit

of English. French become harder because it became the third.

So, you know, after you had made this tiny approach to someone

with this tiny difficult word, then to start over again it made

it made it so difficult that I, I mean, I understand French, I

can read it but to speak French, ...

I: It's difficult.

M: It's very difficult.

I: So your school then, was in English.

I: Your schooling...

M: Half. Half English and then half French. Yes. Oh, I met a

lot of people.

I: Yeah.

M: I made such a wonderful, you know, tour around Canada. You

know,...

I: Yeah.

M: You know, I get involved with the Canadian culture too.

I: Yeah. Now, do you continue to see...

M: Yeah.

I: You do.

M: Yes. We were really good friends.

I: Oh, that's wonderful.

M: Yes.

I: So then, after that year, of schooling, you went then to Europe to

travel around...

M: No, I came back to Mexico, and I started , you know, what we

call preparatoria. Which will be high school, the upper levels

of high school, you know like (**342-343**)

I: Okay. Preparatoria.

M: Si. Preparatoria. And, but I find another different school.

you know, I had wanted to go to a school that was new, that has

something that I thought I learnt in Canada, that was

independent. I can say it now, but it was not so easy at that

time. So, I found a school that was grown by people that were very

young, they're in their late twenties. It was a very progressive

Marxist school.

I: And, here in Mexico City?

M: Yes. It was, it was not the only one. It was like something

that had been going on after sixty-eight. People who were

involved trying to change education, trying to change what some

of the things,you know, like this thing that for middle-class you

have to go to another school or a pre-school so it was not girls

in one side and boys another side.

I: Uh-huh.

M: I wanted something different and I found it. Quite

different.

I: How did you find that, were your parents helping you...

M: Well again my brother Hernan...

I: Okay.

M: ...told me about it. He told me. So I went there and of

course I have so many problems with my family. You know, I read

a few months ago as interview they did to this kid, this artist

kid, you know, Herring?

I: Keith Herring?

M: Yes...

I: Where did you read that?

M: I don't know...

I: Here in a Mexican...?

M: No,it was in, it was an American magazine. But I don't know

because someone left it somewhere and I read eveything that,you

know, goes through my hand, so, I read that, and he said

something that I really like, because, I think he's about my

age, more or less...

I: You're early thirties?

M: Thirty, yes.

I: Yeah. He is.

M: Yeah. And so he said something like he broke his parents'

heart. And I thought it's very nice that he could say that

because I have the same feeling. I mean, perhaps it's just a

generation...

I: Yeah...

M: ...perhaps another generation will say that they become free,

or they did, you know, this modern thing. What I feel is that I

broke...

I: ...Yeah...

M: ...my parents' heart.

I: Now why did he say that?

M: He said something about what I'm going to say that-

I: Oh, okay.

M: You know, in this thing of life, that he was not doing what

he was expected to do.

WI: Okay.

M: And this also, this very fast-going, his own painting too...

it's like, part of this, this thing of broken...heart, of a

broken heart. I think his heart was broken too. So, I feel

mine. But also I think, we fit this nasty thing of break our

parents' heart.

I: Hum. Now why you? How about your other, did your other...

the writer, the composer

M: No they were nice kids.

M: And they're still nice kids.

I: So there's something more than to just being an artist that

broke your parents' hearts.

M: I think, well I was the first woman artist. And I started my

career professionally before my brother and my sister.

I: O.K.

M: But I also think it was something that you know to be a woman

and to do the things I do, there's something about sentimental.

you know that it got be something to do with intimacy, with

confidence, with (* 396 *) thicker parts. And of course, I don't

think anyone who doesn't have a very strong sense of humour could

stand it without feeling yuk, I can't stand it.

I: Especially in a Mexican culture where women are supposed to

be so nice, so lady-like. And I didn't want to be a lady, that's

the horrible thing. I didn't want to be a lady. I wanted to be a

human being. A warm person, not a lady. So it was exactly the

opposite of what was my education all about.

I: That's one of the themes in fact I wanted to talk to you

about, is and in fact, I should elaborate on... I had mentioned

doing an art history book. I really would like to do a book on

women artists. Specifically. And I would love to hear you talk

more about that. I just think it must be, there must be so many

things that accompany being a woman artist in Mexico.

M: Yes.

I: It's not easy being a woman artist in Paris in New York!

M: Anywhere. Yes, I know.

I: But here, there must be additional complications.

M: Well of course. You know, I hace a friend who is French, and

she just, you know, gets drunk and gets laid with anyone who

happens to be around. No matter what sex. You know, and she

never felt guilty about it. And everytime she told me her

stories, you know I would laugh because I've always beeb such a

lady-like in my life, always. And still, because I'm me, and I

say want I want to say and do what I want to say, I feel very

guilty. Guilt has so much to do with me, with all of us that now

that I'm here and I can do whatever I want but I still feel that

perhps I should apologize. So, there's a friend (*245*) I think

you have met him?

I: What?

M: Santiago Rebolledo.

I: Santiago..

M: Rebolledo. He's from Columbia, so He knows this Catholic

stuff too, in a different way. He's a man.

I: Yes, I do know him.

M: He's got a pissed off(*432*). He said every morning, I

...um... todas las mananas le pido perdon a la vida, y luego me olvido.

You see?

I: Escribelo por favor.

M: Every morning I ask forgiveness and then I forget it.

I: OK

I: Now, he being from Columbia? I don't understand what that

connection is. Why...

M: It's a Catholic country too. So, I gues women and men have

different problems. My problem, of course, I think, it's, you

know, the authority that I could have with my own body. What I

meant to tell you that my French friend, she can do anything, and

she didn't feel that her body belonged to anyone but her. She

could do whatever she wanted to.

I: And she's a Mexican woman?

M: No, she's a French, you know from...

I: Oh French, oh OK.

M: I think Mexican artists, or women artists, or women artists

in Mexico, we have a problem with that. That doesn't mean we

don't enjoy, you know, a sensual (*453*) , but what I mean to

say, it's always this thing that your body doesn't really belong

to you. It takes a while to really have this identification with

what you are, with your body the way you are. And to give it to

your body whatever you want to give. That takes a while. So,

they say that you know, my generation, Iwas very lucky because I

have friends, a poet and an actress, a musician, that they are my

generation, and we can talk the same things, you know. It's very

strong, and there is a little bit of humour always, but also this

sad feeling, this you know, often, like story, of some lay. And

also this brick rebuilding of our body as something strong and

also some things that is painful. It's in this half-and-half.

So perhaps FridaKahlo was good saying it. But I find in Frida

Kahlo so many humourous things. You know, not only pain and

blood, but sex. You know enjoyment of sex, of life, of flesh,

that I think it's all part of us too. But it's, it's been a long

tima.

I: Yeah. Well when you say that, you don't feel that you're in

possession of your body, that it doesn't belong to you. Who does

it belong to?

M: That's the point.

I: Yeah.

M: Perhaps it's because, I think, in any society, to have your

own ideas, or your own identity, it takes a while. You have to

pay a price. It's different to find someone who is different.

You see, it's like beauty. You have to have eyes for beauty.

You have to have a regard for beauty. Sometimes people find that

beauty is just what is easy and I don't think it is. I think

beauty takes a while. You have to really deeper, profundo, you

know, to know sorrow, to know so many things, and then you know,

youfind it. So a beautiful woman is not a woman that is thin and

you know, dresses nicely. It's something else. It's got to do

with that too, but it's something else. and beauty you can see

through the eyes, through the hands, through the skin, and also

through loving it. (*512*) That's what i found it so difficult.

I think it's a little bit like that. So when I say that my body,

it's that I relate to painting with my body. I chose it at first

because I didn't know what to say about my feelings. There was

no name for what I felt. And later on, I find out that there are

many names. And sometimes they say things that I like, That I'm

proud of, but sometimes I'm not proud of it. I wish I didn't

have them. But I'm that. That's what makes me human. That's

what, you know, I couldn't fit in other places. Because also to

stick with truth, to say what you wanted to say, with or what you

wanted to say, it takes time. You have to be brave. But you

cannoy be brave when you are a teen-ager. You are only proud.

You only want to fight for a future you still don't have. So

that's what I mean. Perhaps I broke my parents' heart. I wish I

hadn't done it. But I did it because I wanted a future as a

woman, and they couldn't give me the future I wanted. It

belonged to me. Like Patty Smith's song. Have you ever listened

to Patty Smith?

I: Patty Smith. Yes, yes.

M: I loved her because, you know, she said, "it only belonged to

me". She's got a very Catholic song. I don't know if you

remember, but I loved it when I was a teen-ager.

I: And it was called...

M: "Jesus died, for somebody sings, but not mine".

I: Yes. I do remember very well.

M: I don't how called someone that said something like, "my

feelings they only belong to me." So, I guess, that's what I

felt.

I: Yeah.

M: And I think also it's not only me. I think we were feeling a

little bit like that. I think in Mexico, you art is in different

ways. But my generation is the first one that has so many women

involved. As professionals. And you know, you need not be to be

or either pretty or so attractive, or very, very sexual, very

sexual a lot of it. But not specifically that.

I: What - I think I'll stay on this theme for a while and then

go back again to the Marxist (*550*) or proletaria. I don't want

to forget that. When you say this is the generation that now has

women, you mean in all of the fields, not just artists but-

M: Right.

I: -other types of artists. Also in professional businesses and

in-

M: And everywhere.

I: Banks. Everywhere. Here in Mexico in particular.

M: Yes.

I: You've mentioned FridaKahlo. Are there other women do you

think who helped at least, break the ice?

M: Sure.

I: For our generation?

M: In Mexico we have a very strong feminine culture. Except

that it's always hidden in a very strange way.

I: Now when you say "feminine culture", what do you mean?

M: I mean that, you know the power of feelings of what is called

feminine, but also this strong image of woman, of mother perhaps,

but also a sister, I don't know. Mother will be the main image.

But what I say is that: a house is very important. You know,

this thing that you have with your mother, it's so strong, you

never get rid of it. You also have this loving for your mother,

somewhere or another. I think that in Mexico, there are very

nice and strong abd beautiful mothers. That's the truth.

I: Yeah.

M: I think that you can go anywhere and they fit you so nicely

and they give you their hearts so nicely, and I think that's

wisdom. But it's a very old-fashioned wisdom.

So I guess FridaKahlo exists, but also exists Maria

Izquierdo...

I: Now who is she?

M: She's a painter too.

I: OK. And what generation is she?

M: She's a little bit older than Frieda. They even say that

Fridatook some of her fashion-like stuff from her.

I: You mean the clothing that Fridawore?

M: Yes. Adn while some people, younger people like Helen

Escobedo, she, well, she is a hard worker, you know, she's been

doing art and things all the time, and she's been nice with

younger people.

I: In what way?

M: Well, anytime she could give you a name or get you a job, she

will do it. She will include you in shows and stuff like that.

I: Is she particularly nice to women?

M: She's nice.

I: She's just nice, across the board.

M: Yeah. And then, well, we have lots of writers too. And

photographers too. There's a lot of women around. I don't know

if you've noticed but fine arts are for the women.

I: I have noticed. I was asking you just for, to document it.

But, are there groups of women? Do the women artists, have they

formed a formal group at all?

M: They have. I've been close to them, but not enough.

I: Uh-huh.

M: My experience is different. My experience that I have I

found strengths who were artists and women, and we work together.

But it's different because it was more a feeling of common

feelings, especially the humour. This violence thing that we

had.

I: When was this?

M: At the, you know, during the 1979, 1978. Because, like, you

know, we were trying to do something that was very different,

something violent. We loved it.

I: That's great.

M: But also because this thing, you know, that you have a heart,

I feel like I have a heart but my heart it's full of blood - you

should see it. It makes me laugh. I don't know, it says

something with too I guess.

I: Was this a group during '78?

I: After college?

M: We were still in college.

I: Still in college.

M: Yes. But we did still things during the '80's. We did a

piece on FridaKahlo called "Trece Senoritas"...

I: "Trece Senoritas"?

M: Yes. And I did some sign for a cabaret show that was called

"Cuarto Fracaso".

I: "Cuarto Fracaso". And were these performence pieces?

M: No, they were theatre.

I: This was theatre.

M: Yes.

I: OK. Now were men involved also in these?

M: No.

I: These are just women.

I: And this was outside of ...END OF SIDE 1

I: OK. Unfortunately it popped out... Oh that's OK.

Well, why don't we start with, you had just said that you were

interested when you went to the national school, you were

interested in comic books.

M: Yes.

I: But, is that what they call this in Spanish?

M: No.

I: No. OK. What is the word for these books in Spanish?

M: Now it's artists' books.

I: Artists' books.

M: Yes. The thing is that I didn't know that I wanted to do art

books, but that's what I wanted to do.

I: Now, how did you ever get the idea, after you'd been in the

Marxist school with Poalo Freyre School - I can't say that - And

you had hammered copper into vases and you'd done lots of crafts,

you hadn't done much painting at all, in the school, but you were

teaching painting, or art, to young ... kindergarten.

M: And I used to draw a lot.

I: OK. At home, on your own time.

M: Oh, everywhere. I was a fiend at school. I was drawing all the

time. You know the sketches on the (*14*) ?

I: Yes.

M: I was very fiend for that. The thing is that - what I'm

going to say is pretty stupid, but I hope you understand.

I: Oh, I don't think it will be stupid.

M: When I was a child, I had this love for books, as I told you.

But also I think there was part in me that was very much like

books, something that is very secret, very, ahh, well it takes me

a long time to express it. It's not an easy world, but it's

something that I think is very much a part of me. And then, when

I was fourteen, I found, you know, what i told you, this strong

force, which I think perhaps it's what they call sex, but I don't

think it's only that. It's a physical approach.

I: Yeah.

M: Perhaps it's just, I never realized how important it was to

have a body until I found out that my body has it's own laws, and

I had to look at it. I had to see what it was like. I had to

see what, you know, how my memory was stored in my own body.

Because it was bothering me. I was not at ease with my body.

Which happens to all teen-agers, but wuth me, I guess because of

my education, you know, very Catholic education, they teach you

in a way to be frightened of the body. Not to love it. And not

to show it a certain way, you know, where you can express things

that they will never be words to say. Which is love, finally.

So, all the time I was like split in two personalities. One that

liked books and liked inside places, you know, interiors, and

liked to be quiet and liked to have order and things like that,

and another one, that I was always so kind of crazy that the one

who broke my parents' heart, and also my heart. And that didn't

know what love was like. And I thought everything was terrible.

It took me age to realize that the main problem when you are a

teen-ager is that you have sex and then you have section, and to

put it in the same place, it's hard because you don't know what

it's - you know, it takes time to build it. So that's why

experience is necessary. But I didn't know. There was no-one to

ask. Because we were also frightened. We were all in the same

problem that there was no-one to ask about these things. Until I

met my friends, my girlfriends, and I found out they were just

like me. They were nice people and then they were terrible

people. In this particular world, you know what I mean, in this

middle-class (*46*) world with outsiders.

I: Yeah.

M: We didn't do nothing spectacularly wrong I mean, we were not

drug-addicts or you know, nothing like that, but still there was

something that you could tell, right away. You know, they liked

the things I liked and also we were not very pretty women. We

were very pretty, I think. But, you know, all the time when I go

to a family party they tell me why I don't use so much make-up.

If I use so much make-up I will be a beauty, you know?

I: Right. Now, who was saying this to you?

M: Well, relatives you know. Not my parents, but relatives

because there is a (*54*) and so when you don't get into it

you're a(*55*) so on , you look different, so people always tell

you, why aren't you the the very nice girl that I expected you to

be. I mean, I think I'm a nice person, but I don't think I'm a

nice girl. You see?

I: Yes, there's a difference.

M: There's a difference, yes. So, when I started at the art

school, these two things they were in a, I think, sort of in an

equilibrium. I wanted something with words, but I didn't know

exactly why. Perhaps I wanted to tell a story. And I didn't

know how to tell a story without telling, absolutely telling the

story. Because the story, what I wanted to tell the story, was

that, a story about feelings. Astory about how to build a

feeling. And then painting, painting seems so far away because,

you know, I wanted something that had to do with both. Powers

that I felt. So, I get books where the only thing I could think

of that, you know, had the two things. Because in a book you

have this naarative stuff and then you could use drawing, you

could use something else that made it strong too.

I: Well, now, were they, when you got the National School, the

art school, were there some of...

M: Well, there were but I didn't know them.

I: But there were ...

M: Artists, Mexican artists,

I: Mexican artists:

M: Filipe Ehrenberg, Marta Hellion, and Ulisius Carrion.

I: And they were professors, or -

M: No. They were doing books, they were doing things,

I: And they were students, or -

M: The students - nobody was doing things.

I: No. They were - all three of these people were professors at

the time.

M: No they were ... I'll tell you. They were not in Mexico, not

even in Mexico.

I: OK

M: But then Filipe Ehrenberg came back. And went to the school.

And started talking about these kinds of book. An I was shocked.

I: And he was a teacher?

M: Yes. He was teaching there. But not all the time, just you

know, a special course that he did.

I: OK

M: I was shocked. But they were not the books I wanted to do,

because they were books - very conceptual books.

I: Like...

M: You know (*118*) and stuff like that, always very,

(*118*)fluxus? you know,

I: Oh yes, oh, OK

M: That's the accent, the protestant (*121*) accent.

I: OK. Yes.

M: And I wanted something about sentiments. So it still was not

exactly what I wanted.

I: Yeah.

M: But then, I started doing the drawings, you know, have some

words written. And then I started doing them, and became a

professional. I became with drawings. And then I realized about

four years ago, that I never painted again because it was, you

know, it was fashion not to paint. Or perhaps because we wanted,

or I wanted at least, the drawing to become important too, or

the graphic stuff. And in Mexico, in that painting, Mexico loves

so much painting that anything else is not as good as painting.

I: Really, is that true?

M: In Mexico, ther's nothing as painting.

I: Now, I'm the outsider. But for me, there's so much very strong

graphic work here, that I'm stunned.

M: But that's the problem. Because painting is this thing you

know, people are so stiff with it. So stiff. So terribly badly

painting. Not with the graphics because it doesn't matter. Not

with drawing because it didn't matter. It's with painting, you

have to be serious with painting. I didn't want to be you know,

like that.

I: Now when you were, when you were making these sorts of

decisions, interested in drawing and graphics and books, who were

the painters that everyone was writing about? Who were the

painters who Mexico considered the best?

M: Well, people that I didn't get anything close with, you know?

Well no, they were my friends so I knew them, but I didn't have

anything to do with them. First, with the geometric school.

I: OK

M: Which I found out that even if they are few good artists in

that school, I thought they (*149*) pretended to be more than

they were apt to be, you know.

I: Now is that Gettersol and Faltgetes(*150)?

M: Getters, yes. Gates(*151*) he's smarter. He's a thinker too.

And (*152*) he's a nice friend, but I don't relate to his work.

I: Yeah.

M: Also there was this school of painting with, well it has

something to do as friends, you know, that has something also to

do with Spanish texture like Macotela(*157*).

I: Ah yes. That's a formal school that has a name?

M: Abstract, how do they call them, materico.

I: Materico.

M: It became very popular too in the '70's. Macotela

was very young at the time, and he was a star.

I: And was he a student with you at the National School.